Media

Transcript

Host: Welcome to the Mystery College podcast. Today we're with Jason Soll, founder of Guided Shifting — a course that teaches you how to shift into a deeper sense of relaxation, calmness, and mindfulness. Welcome to the show.

Jason: Thanks for having me.

Host: We also have Alex, former professor of comparative religion and now my co-host.

Alex: Hey everyone — good morning, good evening, wherever you are in the world.

Host: Jason, can you tell us what started you on your mindfulness journey?

Jason: Suffering. Do you want the longer answer?

Host: Yes, please.

Jason: The shorter answer is everybody's answer. The longer one goes like this: I first heard of mindfulness and meditation maybe fifteen-plus years ago, through the lens of optimizing mental performance — that kind of thing. Then, many years later, I was in a very dark place, probably depressed for around a year. I was so stubborn about seeking help — a lifelong pattern — that my first attempt at getting help was to just do it myself. So I downloaded Headspace and started meditating. That was around 2018, 2019.

In early 2019, I had my first meditation experience where it really clicked — where I actually felt different. That was through the Peloton app, of all places. They have meditation classes, and there was a 30-minute loving-kindness meditation that my system just responded to beautifully. I started doing it every day. On days I did it in the morning, I felt better. On days I didn't, I felt worse. It was supportive, but my relationship with the practice still felt a bit tenuous — a little high-stakes.

Then, about three years ago, I discovered the new science of awakening. I learned about it and set out to see if these lasting changes could actually take place in my own system. And basically exactly a year ago, they did. That set me on the path toward making this available to everyone online at a very affordable price, through a streamlined process. That's the arc of the journey.

Host: Fantastic. And I really appreciate the affordability and the tiered pricing options — same content at every tier, just different price points based on where you're at financially. That conscientiousness means a lot.

Jason: I want to live in a world where everyone benefits from this. That's the underlying goal. If a large number of people could experience even 10 or 20 percent of the benefits I've experienced in my day-to-day embodied life — that's just a better world. I choose that world.

Host: And I also appreciate that throughout the course, there are intake forms and surveys. It's a new approach to mindfulness — things are being quantified, and you're encouraged to reflect on specific metrics. What brought you to this model of making it scientific and measurable?

Jason: As I alluded to earlier, I'm not interested in just giving people another cool daily practice. My ambitious goal — which is the norm for users of this program — is to bring people through genuinely transformative experiences. What I mean by that is: you are one way beforehand, you're another way afterward, and you don't need to do anything to maintain it. You are a changed being.

A lot of these changes span what the website takes you through — the full awakening continuum, plus supportive sessions around trauma healing and other growth work. These transformative sessions have an almost omnidirectional impact across one's life.

This is quite different from the world I've worked in. I've been an executive coach for about five years. In that world, and in many therapeutic modalities, the goal is to identify a specific area for growth and then do targeted work toward that change. But to my utter surprise, the experiences that Guided Shifting takes people through can spontaneously produce really profound changes across numerous aspects of life — without any conscious effort. People experience improvements they didn't even know were possible until they'd already happened.

The integration resources on the website help you build awareness of all the ways your life is changing. The more aware you are of that, the more empowered you'll be to apply conscious effort wherever it's most useful. I want to avoid spiritual bypassing. I want people to be very clear on the truth of what's happening across all aspects of their lives. And since this process allows your mind and body to be okay with more — to be more resilient — I trust that people can see their lives more clearly and feel empowered by that, rather than weighed down. It's a full body, full-stack experience. We just see what changes as you go through the sessions.

Host: I love that. No spiritual bypassing — entering a deeply relaxed space, observing sensations, and being really honest with ourselves through the journaling and surveys. And you were great at addressing people who may not be naturally sensitive to internal sensations. Could you share a bit about how you work with that?

Jason: Sure. One way to summarize how this technique works is: you feel your way into deeper states of safety. It's predominantly a felt sense — it doesn't require visualizations or traditional forms of inquiry. You feel your way into these states.

The challenge is that language doesn't naturally point in this direction. These are extraordinarily subtle aspects of embodied experience, and the language is still imperfect — the sessions aren't 100% effective for everyone, because different language resonates with different people. So in the sessions, you'll often find me offering a genuine set of options for how something might be showing up.

For example, at the beginning of sessions there's a natural emergence of different felt senses of peace. It might be a felt sense of stillness, or openness, or emptiness, or spaciousness, or fullness, or heaviness, or groundedness or rootedness. Each of these words points at something slightly different — there are a couple of distinct ways that peace seems to arise in the embodied experience when you go through this process. Some language works for some people, other language works for others. That's one reason I'm continuously tweaking the process — always trying to make it better and more effective for more people.

One other thing worth underscoring: you do have to be able to feel. If your system has been designed — through trauma or other defense patterns — to prevent you from feeling, it's going to take more time to ease into this. I try to make the pathway into feeling as accessible as possible, but for some people it's harder. That's not their fault. It's simply how their system learned to survive.

Host: You mentioned the scientific foundations of the work — Dr. Jeffrey Martin is a big influence, as are somatic-based practices from Bessel van der Kolk and Peter Levine. I'm also curious how research on flow states plays into what you're doing.

Jason: Going straight to flow — the research on flow is largely about how to enter flow states, how to get glimpses of them. What seems to spontaneously happen for many people by around phase two of the Guided Shifting journey is that they're living in a persistent flow state. It's no longer about finding tasks calibrated to your skill level to trigger flow — that whole framework falls away.

The qualities people describe when they enter flow states — the altered relationship to time, the sense of self shifting, the quality of decision-making, even physical movement — these exactly match what people shift into as a result of just a couple of Guided Shifting sessions. It perfectly aligns with the research on awakening and the continuum of awakening experiences that people can have as a persistent day-to-day reality.

But zooming out — my whole goal here is to help people live better lives. Feel better. Be more free. Just genuinely enjoy their lives more. That direction has brought me to integrate all the different modalities and research I've encountered, not only through my own journey, but through five years of working with clients as a practitioner.

Dr. Jeffrey Martin's research forms the foundation in terms of what to expect — the predictable changes that occur along the way, so people know what they're experiencing is normal. Then there's significant integration of polyvagal theory and trauma work — drawing on Peter Levine and Bessel van der Kolk — essentially how to leverage the fact that Guided Shifting sessions allow the body to feel so much safer, making deep trauma healing far more accessible.

It's similar to what happens in psychedelic-assisted therapy: if you give someone a full dose of MDMA, they have a couple of hours where their entire system feels dramatically safer, and in that window, the body will spontaneously begin to either heal trauma or allow corresponding repressed emotions to finally feel safe enough to be expressed. With Guided Shifting, instead of a temporary dose of safety, you get a persistent one.

Alex: I want to pause here — I understand give or take 82% of what you and Jake are discussing, but for the sake of listeners who are brand new to all of this, could you explain what flow state is, without the jargon?

Jason: Great question — and a fair one. Let me describe it in simple terms, starting with how it feels to be in the early stages of awakening.

The average person spends a lot of time throughout their day lost in thought. Thoughts about the future, thoughts about the past, anxiety about what might happen, shame or regret about what did. A lot of those thoughts are self-referential — the inner critic running a commentary on how you're doing, or rehearsing conversations, or fantasizing about how things could go differently. This is how I spent most of my life.

Most of us know what it's like to be lost in that kind of thinking. And often it doesn't feel very good. A lot of people seek out extreme ways to escape it — substances, workaholism, extreme sports, meditation retreats. All of the above.

What we don't talk about much is what it would actually be like to not need to spend so much time lost in thought. Imagine going through your day with very few thoughts about yourself — or where thoughts, when they do arise, just feel neutral. Not sticky or heavy. The same way you might notice birds outside or see a blue sky and green leaves — just part of the passing scenery. That's flow state.

Alex: So essentially — what in Hindu aesthetics might be described as the state where one does not react to things?

Jason: About 90% agree with that. Let me double-click on the "react" piece, though, because I think there's a lot of misconception around reactivity in spiritual circles.

Alex: Yes — I think a lot of people interpret ideals around non-reactivity as non-action, non-movement, non-dynamism. And this is dualistic thinking.

Jason: Exactly. It's not exclusive to spiritual contexts either. Reaction is both — reacting to everything, but also, in a sense, non-reaction is itself a reaction. If I sit here in silence, I am responding to that silence. There is no non-action. Everything is an action, including inaction.

Alex: Which is why when you said earlier that we're not looking for a spiritual loophole — I really appreciated that. Because at the core of it, if you strip spirituality of its ritual, what it actually is is self-mastery. And I feel like you're taking the essential insight of spirituality, removing the ritualistic elements, and presenting it in a way that's neither cold and clinical nor purely abstract — but still manages to tap into that deep human drive to connect to something larger than oneself.

Jason: Yes — and I'd love to live in a world where you don't have to consider yourself spiritual or even spiritually curious to benefit from what spirituality can offer people. Which is part of why on the Guided Shifting website, there's nothing spiritual about it. The word "awakening" isn't really there. "Spirituality" isn't really there.

That said, if you are spiritual, mystical, or religious — great. What I've found is that going through these distilled experiences brings you into contact with concepts that were prototyped in various mystical and spiritual traditions over the centuries. You gain the benefits at the embodied level, without any teaching or belief required. The sessions are simply embodied experiences designed to lead to lasting changes in how you live. Then go be spiritual.

And on the other side of that, what I tend to find is that people actually gain even more direct, deep, and intimate access to what these spiritual traditions were trying to facilitate in the first place. So if anything, this can function as a booster for spiritual practice — something that enhances and deepens your relationship with whatever you were already drawn to, in a more direct and authentic way.

Alex: Let me ask a pointed question. You mentioned that a lot of people use spirituality as a form of escape. Is your system likewise not a form of escape? And why isn't it?

Jason: I love that question. Let's sit with the concept of escape for a moment.

When I think of escape, I think of: I'm not okay here. I might be more okay somewhere else. And often that's oriented around external circumstances — I'm not okay with the people I'm around, where I am in my career, my financial situation. I'd only feel okay in different circumstances, around different people, with more prestige or money, or in a different physical place.

First — nothing wrong with that. It's a fundamentally human thing. We should escape danger. We should escape starvation. The body needs certain things to be healthy, and yes, we should absolutely be empowered to leave genuinely unhealthy circumstances and systems.

But there's also a shadow side to escapism, which is where I think your question is really pointing. Escapism on the shadow side can involve progressively shrinking your world — to the point where you only feel okay under a very narrow set of circumstances. You only feel okay around a particular guru, or within a specific community. You don't feel okay around family, or strangers, or anyone outside that bubble. That might still be an upgrade for some people — and I mean that genuinely, not condescendingly. But it's a form of narrowing.

What my program offers is a way to feel a deep sense of safety, okayness, and connectedness — anywhere, with anyone. The entire world becomes somewhere you can move through freely, with a felt sense of community and connection. That's the goal.

And it's something I've experienced in my own life. I'm in no way the finished product of that, but I've made enormous progress. One of the main benefits I've personally experienced is what it's like to be around complete strangers. Oh my gosh — it's often the highlight of my day. This sense of abundant family, of joy and play and love and connection with people who move in and out of your life unexpectedly. Total delight. Riches you didn't even know you had.

My goal is to move people through the sessions, have them experience the shifts, and then send them out to live better lives. I don't want anyone getting stuck in these practices. I don't prescribe daily practices or things you have to maintain. Experience the sessions, hopefully achieve lasting results, and go live however you want to design your life. I don't want to lock anyone in a comfortable little cocoon of routine and ritual.

Alex: I noticed on your website that you include a caveat for individuals experiencing severe internalized trauma, dissociation, or breaks from reality — that the program isn't advised for those individuals. Could you speak to that?

Jason: Yes. If you're prone to dissociation, or if you're not living in a stable consensus reality, or if you're struggling with more intense psychological challenges — get stabilized first. Get the support you need to reach a baseline level of functionality before pursuing any of this. I'd also probably not recommend it for people under fifteen or possibly under eighteen. I just don't have enough data on that yet.

But beyond that — you don't need any meditation experience or spiritual background. If anything, the program often works best for people who come in completely fresh.

Alex: Have you ever personally had what people would categorize as a profound religious experience?

Jason: No.

Alex: So your system is completely divorced from any quasi-religious framework.

Jason: Yes. Though I'll add one nuance: some people do report having mystical experiences during the sessions. I never did, and you don't need those experiences for the method to work. The mystical experience isn't the goal — it just happens to come with the territory for some people, probably based on how their systems are wired. I don't package or market it that way.

What ends up happening is that your lived experience, spontaneously, begins to sound like a peak mystical state if you describe it to someone — but it feels extraordinarily ordinary. Not noteworthy. You just go along with your day. Which I think is actually the more honest description of what these traditions were always pointing at.

Alex: Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.

Jason: Exactly. We've created this enormous red herring around enlightenment — the idea that once you get there, you're Yoda. You're a Jedi. It's not that. The language that describes the lived experience makes it sound like it's on a pedestal. Take non-duality, for example.

Non-dual perception is one of the things that typically arises even after just a first or second session. And for years I was under the impression that to experience non-duality, I had to be a great student of all the great teachers — I read countless books, watched hundreds of lectures, accumulated enormous amounts of information. None of that helped. If anything, it can set you back because it creates fixed expectations.

I always assumed non-duality would mean merging into the cosmic soup — feeling the size of the entire universe, being omniscient, literally becoming the Force. And then it actually happened, and it was just... ordinary. That's the surprise.

Jason: What drives me now is this: if millions or tens of millions of people around the world efficiently rewire their systems this way, and get to live from this place — what's possible? What else could we do? There might be a hero's journey on the other side of that that's even more interesting. Or maybe you're just done with hero's journeys, and you get to live an enjoyable life with nothing you have to do. Also great. Maybe that is the new hero's journey — learning to feel perfectly okay with not needing to be a hero.

Host: For the sake of the beginner — can you walk us through how an absolute newcomer would experience your system? Let's say: non-religious, no meditation experience, moderately curious, moderately traumatized, but functioning.

Jason: It's quite straightforward. You go to the website, choose whatever amount you can afford to pay, and get access to everything. I also continue sending updates over time, so you'll receive all of that.

At the very beginning, you start with what I call a Baseline Discovery Session. Before any transformative experiences, we want a clear picture of where you're at right now. I walk you through reflection exercises across many different aspects of your life — capturing ground truth. Where are you today? We'll measure changes against that baseline going forward.

Then you enter your first Guided Shifting session. These run about an hour to an hour and a half total, so budget that time. Do them in a quiet, comfortable space — a comfy chair, reclined if you like (I don't recommend lying completely flat), with a blanket, a pillow, whatever makes you comfortable. No lotus pose required.

You close your eyes and follow along as I guide you through the process on video. I help you relax, then direct your attention to certain very subtle movements and occurrences — things that spontaneously arise — and have you work with them in a specific way. After about 30 minutes, you open your eyes. For around 75 to 80 percent of people, you just feel a little different. Then we go for another round, because the doses compound and build. Each round is about 30 minutes using the same method. The second time you open your eyes, you might feel something different again — heavier, more grounded, buzzy. Whatever it is, you just feel shifted.

It's also common for people to not want to do anything after a session. It can feel like the most relaxed they've ever been — like there's nothing they need to do, because the anxiety and compulsion to keep seeking the next thing has just... quieted. People often want to spend another ten or twenty minutes just sitting in it.

When you're ready, I walk you through a series of reflection questions to investigate what may have shifted in your current experience. How is your mental activity right now? People typically report that thoughts feel quieter, lighter, more ephemeral — less sticky. Sometimes people report zero thoughts. I've asked people in person if they can even think of a thought right now, and they say "what's the point?" Then I ask how they're managing to respond to my questions, and they say, "I don't know — responses are just happening. I'm not preloading them. It's just intuitive and unfiltered."

After exploring different dimensions of your experience — mental activity, emotional activity, physical sensations, how the visual field appears — the session concludes. I advise people to be very gentle with themselves through the rest of the day. It's normal to feel a little high for a while, and then the system integrates and you feel more or less normal again.

In the coming days, you observe what's changed. Sometimes there are very few changes; sometimes there are significant ones. Common ones include non-reactivity — you're in situations or around people where you'd normally feel triggered, and suddenly the spike of adrenaline or tightening in the chest just isn't there. Another common change is that more emotion gets expressed in certain moments, not less — because there's less resistance. The body feels safer and no longer needs to bottle things up, which is actually far healthier. Both of those can spontaneously happen from just one session.

If you like where you're at, you can stay there. You don't have to do more sessions. If you want to go further, there are about fifteen sessions in total, each one upgrades how safe your body feels, and different phenomena show up along the way associated with the awakening progression. There are also what I call Sound Bubbling sessions, designed to leverage the safety your body has developed to allow for the expression and healing of more deeply rooted trauma and defense patterns. Those are available as well.

And if you don't like the changes — it's rare, but it can happen — there's also guidance on the website to reverse-shift. Basically, an undo.

Alex: You mentioned that sessions sometimes allow for emotional release — less guarded, less bottled up. How does this translate to emotional outbursts? There's a reason we control our emotions — when floodgates open, things can get messy. Does this ever inadvertently result in that kind of reaction?

Jason: Great question. Let's spend some time here.

When you say emotional outburst, there are a couple of different things you could mean. One is simply: you're calm, then there's a burst, then calm again. Another is expressing an emotion in a way that's designed to dominate or injure — and this is where the spiritual world has done some damage, because there's enormous emphasis on not being angry, on not reacting. But when you dredge up feelings — especially repressed ones — anger is a perfectly human response. So how does the system handle that?

Anger specifically — I didn't experience pure anger until I was about 31. It was that repressed, that deeply a no-go zone. My system was, at some level, terrified that if I ever felt it, I would die. And yet, if you look at the animal kingdom, anger is a beautifully adaptive thing. Anger, when cleanly felt and expressed, is a boundary defense. It says: back off. Every being has a right to their own space and self-protection. That's true throughout nature, and humanity is no different.

So I don't issue any taboos around any emotions. The human body is designed to feel and express the full spectrum.

The desired end state I'm working toward — for myself and for everyone who goes through this — is one where the default is a state of peace, of loving connection, of what polyvagal theory calls rest-and-digest. Your body is safe and settled. And whenever an emotion wants to arise and move through, it's felt promptly — not suppressed for long — felt cleanly, meaning it's the actual emotion at the root (anger, for example, is often a mask for hurt), and expressed skillfully. A great resource for that last piece is Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication.

That's the ideal: emotion arises, it's felt and expressed promptly, cleanly, and skillfully. And yeah — if I find myself in genuinely threatening circumstances, I'm probably going to be dynamically engaged with whatever my body needs to feel and do. The body is designed to handle that. The problem isn't reactivity itself; it's when the nervous system is stuck in fight-or-flight even when no actual threat is present — when you're in a meeting with colleagues and your body is acting like you're in danger. That's the thing to address. Not the capacity itself.

Alex: Which brings me to a related question: for people in jobs or professions that require them to react quickly, sometimes forcefully — will going through your system inadvertently result in apathy or delayed reaction?

Jason: No. And this gets to a deeper distinction — what I think of as the difference between fear-based reactivity and intuitive responsiveness.

Throughout my day, there's lots of movement, lots of response. But toward the end of the Guided Shifting journey, that experience becomes a little paradoxical — it feels like movement amidst total stillness. Like you're completely awash in stillness, and within that, motion is happening, dynamic things are happening, responses are arising. You'll discover it when you get there.

What I found in myself, and what I believe is common, is that you begin to feel the difference between responding intuitively and responding from fear. You can feel the quality — an "ick" quality, for me — when I'm moving through the world from a place of anxious self-protection versus the clean feeling of purely intuitive response. They feel different.

For someone whose behavior is largely driven by fear — let's say 90% of your movements through the day are fear-motivated — and then suddenly that fear drops to near zero, yes, that's going to be a significant change. It might feel at first like a loss of motivation. But what I observe is that people become much more attuned to what's actually important. You can start to feel the difference between an action you're taking because it genuinely serves something and an action you're taking because someone passed their anxiety down to you.

You might find yourself, for the first time, able to push back on your boss. Or notice that what's being asked of you doesn't actually serve the mission. You gain more genuine choice — choice rooted in clarity rather than compulsion. And yes, you might feel an energetic decrease around the old fear-driven patterns. That could look like shift in relationships, jobs, habits. For some people those changes will be welcome; for others it takes adjustment. But they tend to move in the direction of: you deserve more, your needs matter, and you don't have to keep reacting to everyone's fear around you.

And just to be clear — if you go through the program and don't like the changes, you can do the reverse-shift sessions. You can come back later if you want.

Host: What about compatibility with medication? If someone is on antidepressants or anti-anxiety medication and also seeing a therapist — is that compatible with your system?

Jason: Please, yes — cheat on me. Get whatever support you can get. I still work with a coach, go on retreats — I'm constantly supplementing this with other things.

On the medication question specifically: there's a community called Perfectly Okay — I believe the website is perfectlyok.org — a nonprofit community of people who've participated in Dr. Jeffrey Martin's courses, which form the research foundation for how the stages of awakening progress. That community has been around for close to a decade, includes therapists and psychologists, and the general impression there is that as long as you're psychologically stable, there aren't specific concerns with being on medication.

I've had a good handful of people on antidepressants and other medications go through Guided Shifting sessions, and as of this recording — having worked with around 300 people — I haven't received any reports of issues. But I don't want to make sweeping claims. I'd love to have more data over time.

Host: Switching to your executive coaching background — what transformation have you seen in people with very high-leverage lifestyles? What changes when they're able to drop into safety instead of operating from fight-or-flight?

Jason: Subtraction equals addition — or more precisely, subtraction is addition.

There's a leading framework in the executive coaching world, developed by researchers at Harvard, called Immunity to Change. The core idea is this: we have something we want to improve — a skill, an attribute, a leadership quality — and yet we can't seem to make progress on it no matter how hard we try. That's because we have another foot on the brake. We're simultaneously pushing hard on the gas and the brake without realizing it. We expend enormous energy and go nowhere.

The real leverage isn't pushing harder — it's easing off the brake. When you do, you naturally go further and faster with far less effort.

What commonly happens for leaders who go through Guided Shifting and the corresponding trauma healing sessions is that they feel so much safer in their bodies that there's a simplification effect. There's not nearly as much to think about. Distractions become far less potent. And the more successful you are, the more complexity you're holding, the more potential for distraction — so the simplification effect is actually more powerful the higher up you are.

I've seen major improvements in sleep. I've seen leaders finally trust their intuition early enough — especially around personnel decisions. There's a saying that no one ever regrets firing someone too early; they always regret waiting too long. When you're operating from clarity rather than anxiety, that kind of decision becomes clean and complete. You feel the rise of intuition, you act on it, and you move on instead of being caught in an internal loop for weeks.

There's also greater capacity to hold complexity. My own life right now is an example — I'm juggling many things simultaneously and I'm nowhere near capacity, which is directly attributable to what these practices have done to my lived experience.

And there's a softer side too: some leaders have had the capacity for genuine appreciation and warmth toward their employees essentially switched off for their whole career. Going through this work can bring that back online. What emerges is a consistent boost in courage — a willingness to trust your instincts generously, even if it upsets investors or your executive team. And what's powerful is that you're no longer dumping your anxiety on everyone else. "Team, make me feel better by doing XYZ." Instead it's: I feel fine. I'm fine if this company fails. Things come in and out of existence. Let's be honest about that. There's a much more simplified, courageous, truth-facing stance that comes through. I think every leader deserves it.

Host: Any final thoughts you haven't had a chance to share?

Jason: Let me pause and see what comes. It's springtime in Sacramento right now. And one of the great, unexpected benefits of all this work is a deep, almost startling enjoyment of the seasons. Of nature. Of plants and smells and what's happening outside. I get such deep joy from it. Just looking at a flower in bloom, or trees with their first leaves coming in, or the smell of the air, or watching other people outside enjoying it.

It sounds simple. But there's just so much life to be enjoyed, and it turns out that when your mind and nervous system go through this rewiring process, you become seated at a buffet of experience that was always there — you just couldn't access it. Instead of scrounging for little bits of pleasure throughout the day, you find yourself immersed in richness you didn't know existed. I wish that for so many people. It's just a better way to live.

Host: That's beautiful. And what you said made me think about showing up more fully for my spouse, friends, family — being more available, more present. Like what you described with strangers — that deep felt sense of connection.

Jason: That's one of the things I'm most excited about, actually — the potential for improved relationship dynamics. For the first time in my life, I can just fully be with my wife — whatever she's experiencing — without getting launched into reactivity loops to make myself feel okay. I can just be with her. And we get to offer that to each other now. That unconditional presence, without needing to contort your partner into a specific version of themselves in order to feel safe. It's so good.

Thanks so much to Jason Soll for this rich, wide-ranging conversation. Learn more and begin your journey at guidedshifting.com.